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Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Havsauthority Offline
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Post: #1
Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Hi Guys,
I was pretty sure of joining Kelley until an hour ago.
That is when i got mail from MAYS info service announcing an aid worth approx 13k USD.
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03-09-2012 09:45 PM
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Post: #2
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Honestly , I am not a knowledgeable person in these things , but what I feel is , a funding say of 13k (6-7 lakhs) shouldn't change the bigger picture.. Afterall the decisions are for a lifetime Razz wat say ? Smile

03-10-2012 08:07 AM
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Post: #3
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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^^ Exactly my thought, Kelley should THE place for you. Don't get lured by the scholarships et al, if you have other things working in favor of Kelley.

03-10-2012 09:17 AM
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Post: #4
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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If you get significant funding, and the universities have similar reputation, no reason to pick the more expensive one.

The big picture includes how long you will be repaying loans, and I'd never underestimate that. 13k is a lot of money, and Kelley isn't that much ahead.
03-10-2012 09:18 AM
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Havsauthority Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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coolguru ,

Can you please elaborate on Kelley not being that far ahead?
AFAIK the areas where kelley scores above MAYS, Please correct me if i am wrong -

1. Class size of Kelley : 30 odd indians compared to 50 odd at MAYS.
2. Location of Kelley : proximity to Indi and Chicago.
3. Kelley as a B school is higher ranked by US NEWS.
4. Course structure at MAYS was thrashed by some seniors here on edulix. can dig in the exact post if you want me to.

eagerly awaiting a response.


coolguru ,

Can you please elaborate on Kelley not being that far ahead?
AFAIK the areas where kelley scores above MAYS, Please correct me if i am wrong -

1. Class size of Kelley : 30 odd indians compared to 50 odd at MAYS.
2. Location of Kelley : proximity to Indi and Chicago.
3. Kelley as a B school is higher ranked by US NEWS.
4. Course structure at MAYS was thrashed by some seniors here on edulix. can dig in the exact post if you want me to.

eagerly awaiting a response.


"...It is IU..."

School is hectic, can't evaluate SOPs
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 12:40 PM by Havsauthority.)
03-10-2012 12:27 PM
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Post: #6
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Havsauthority: look at it this way..... what is the total amount that you'll have to pay to college for the entire course....

for Kelley, it should be around 40K assuming you have no aid....

how much does it add up to for TAMU....??? If the difference is within 10K I'd say go for Kelly...

If it's significantly higher, then you'll have to rethink your decision.....

cos if the difference is somehwere closer to 15-20K, it'll be close to 1 -1.5 yrs before you recoup your investment in Kelley....
and what cool guru says is absolutely true.... my friend who went to USC took out a loan for around 30k USD.... he's been working as an SAP consultant for almost a year and a half now and he says that he has barely paid back 50% of his debt..... these things take time, trust me....

But if expenses are not a pressing concern and you can afford it but you are simply rethinking your decision on the basis of "why spend a truckload of money on Kelley when I can get the same degree for a lot less from TAMU" , I'd say go for Kelley....


also in the interset of full disclosure, I have been waitlisted at Kelley and therefore I stand to benefit if you choose TAMU.... So take my advice with a pinch of salt, eventhough I can assure you that it is a fair and honest opinion....

(This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 12:56 PM by ajaynv87.)
03-10-2012 12:47 PM
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Post: #7
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Havsauthority

As we discussed yesterday, keeping in mind that the living expenses in Bloomington and College Station will almost be the same. There is a 7.5-10 lakhs difference in the fees which in my personal opinion is not that significant. So now the point of focus should be the course structure and the placement scenario in both the colleges. Which is superior than other in these two cases? That should be the answer to the dilemma. I always believe that in term of fee structure, Kelley is betwen TAMU and CMU more tending towards TAMU. Good luck and let us know your decision bhai.. Smile
@[coolguru]

Can you please elaborate on your comment that Kelley isn't much far ahead. I have an admit from Kelley and till now I have heard only good things about it. Looks like you may have a reason or two to negate the positive side of it. Please share your thoughts....

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(This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 04:25 PM by sunny1988ster.)
03-10-2012 04:24 PM
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Post: #8
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Based on edulix, there seems to nothing wrong with Kelley. Everybody says close your eyes and take it. Surely no program is perfect! Surprised

Also, I spoke to a few Kelley seniors who have passed out now and they seem to think TAMU is not too far behind. Also, they weren't very impressed with every course they were taught.

Also, Kelley costs around 22-24l without any aid which takes around 2 years to repay. (Kelley grad who is working in Infosys consulting told me this) So, there is a difference.

So try to focus on facts and make your decision! And I guess people would love to be in your position!
All the best! Smile

03-10-2012 09:13 PM
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Post: #9
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Let me tell you how I think (while keeping in mind that I applied to neither Kelley nor Mays, and so this is all based on what facts I know of and have heard, from sources both on and off Edulix). I'll also try to hazard a guess of what coolguru is trying to explain, without stepping on his shoes.

All that shouting about placements, rankings and class strengths (or for that matter, # of Indian/international students in a program) is bunk. Let's get that out of the way first and foremost. That said, I am NOT saying that the school has no hand in getting you that internship or a job - nope, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. But, getting a job in not merely a function of your univ of degree. To a greater extent, it is a function of you, your past work-ex, transferable skills and efforts. On what basis am I saying this? My own experience. You don't realize these things until you come here and start applying for full-time jobs. Not internships, mind you, am not talking about them, because they've comparatively easier to get as compared to full-time roles and almost everyone ends up getting one.

About full-time jobs: imagine this scenario, and I'll try to make it as close to home as possible, so it's better to understand. Consider an IIT-B grad, a grad from MU/PU , one from an NIT, say VNIT. All 3 have completed their bachelors' degrees in the same duration, have similar skills, no work-ex, etc. Meaning, apart from the tag they have of being from a particular school, everything else they have is more-or-less the same. Now, who do you think is gonna get hired first, and why? Of course, first the IIT fella (probably right out of campus, in the third year), then the VNIT fella and then the MU/PU guy, probably (though this mightn't always be the case). Why so? Because, in absence of prior, relevant, work-ex, the distinguishing factor is the school name; the more selective your school is, the better you're considered to be, because the school did a part of your potential employer's work by vetting you out a long time ago. Now, hold that thought in your head.

Go a year into the future. Our heroes have now started working with the jolly band of boys, slaving away till the wee hours of morning for a client. All 3 of them work equally hard, are equally dedicated to their work, everything about their work-ethic is similar. What's the difference? The job responsibilities and payscale. Which, inherently means, that more your job responsibilities, greater the chances of you ascending the ladder quicker, as compared to someone who joined the hierarchy somewhere beneath you (be it in terms of role, designation, salary or what not). So, what enabled this nitro boost (so to speak)? Their univ tag. Yes, that's it. That's what gave different people different sort of a leg-up (assuming their have equivalent skills, projects and talent).

Flash-forward 5 years into the future. Suppose the IIT and VNIT fellas screw up badly, for whatever reason (just for example's sake), and the guy from MU/PU doesn't. Do you think, if the chance arises, would the MU/PU guy get promoted over the other two? Yes! Goes straight as an arrow, no mistakes, nothing. At that stage, the school you graduated from, is just an interesting footnote. But would it matter a whole lot and would it have much impact on your promotions or whatever? Probably not - and it really shouldn't, either, because your appraisals should depend solely on the work you're putting in, not on what you did prior to joining that org. Keep that thought in your mind as well.

Same thing applies here. Keep a few things in mind, that I won't bother explaining again:

1) Unless you're from the top 20-30 schools in the US (overall, not specific to any particular field/major), it's all more-or-less the same. Seriously.

2) The companies in your niche field know which school are good and are a cut above the rest. In this case, those would be the ones like Deloitte, E&Y, PWC, etc. Meaning, they'd go first to the schools they have hired from in the past, or have a good ongoing relationship with, and then go to the rest of the campuses as per time and convenience constraints (here is where the location of the school matters too), if at all they are interesting in going there.

3) When I say "companies would go to a school", they wouldn't necessarily go to them to hire. No, that is NOT how it works anywhere outside India. The concept of "placements" is only present in some parts of the world. In most cases, you are not offered the job on a silver platter, you have to go and grab it. To give you an analogy, suppose that you're hungry and are waiting for dinner. If you're in India, the dinner would be served on your plate in many cases, and in some ones, it'll even be forced down your throat. Here, some schools would make you go find the ingredients on your own and do everything from there yourself (those are the schools you should avoid going to), some would get the ingredients but leave the cooking and serving up to you (meaning, they'd have a career portal with job listings, and help you get a base platform to start your search from, but that's about it), some would cook it up for you, but you'd need to carry it out to the dining hall yourself and help yourself if you need more servings (meaning, they'd have a career portal, would arrange career fairs - I'll come to that point later on - but from that point on, you're on your own), while others would set up a nice little buffet for you wherein it'll all be laid out for you on a table, you just have to serve yourselves and carry it out to your seat (meaning, the school would arrange for career fairs, have employment portals and would go ahead and arrange for companies to hold recruitment sessions on-campus, but from that point on, only your skills, profile and background would get you the job).

4) Now, come back to point #1 above. When I said the top 20 schools, I meant in an overall sense. Schools that everyone would know of, as being awesome, and would've heard about (and by "everyone", I do NOT mean someone who's in your field or has hired in the past). That list would include schools like Harvard, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, UMich, UNC Chapel Hill, etc. The biggies, which may or may not have programs in your major/field (in this case, MIS), but if you're up against someone from one of those schools who isn't from your major, still there is some sort of an inherent bias (obviously) if the position you're aiming for is an entry- to mid-level role. Meaning, if you're up against someone from Berkeley iSchool or the UMich SI, would they get a leg-up because of their univ tag? Probably, yes, just like an IITan would get. In this scenario, would it make a lot of difference if you're from a Univ of Cincinnati or a Texas A&M or an IUB? Probably not. Which brings me to point #5.

5) So, if everything depends on the overall reputation of a school, what do we keep hearing on about the school rep, and on what basis are seniors on Edulix and elsewhere ranking schools as per their rep? The answer is, here is where the departmental rep, contacts and networking efforts pay off. Especially for B-schools. If the school (not the univ, but the B-school in specific) has made an awesome name for itself through its program quality or networking through alumni and/or potential employers, this is where it'd matter. And this is what we mean when we say school A is better than a school B, and when we rank Kelley, Mays, CMU, Eller, etc. (among others) as per their reputation. That, is also why, coolguru in another of his excellent posts, made a very important comparison between the Smith School of Business at UMCP and UA's Eller. In the niche field and in terms of interviews (past the stage where you've gotten the call), there are better chances that employers would know about the minutae and the specific strengths of specific schools (like UC is good in SAP/ERP, etc.). But, that's only after my resume has been shortlisted for an interview call in the first place. So, what gets me past the initial culling? My work-ex, primarily, projects worked on in academia and industry, and the overall rep of the school (not necessarily the department rep, mind you, because this initial shortlisting is mostly done by HR folks who mostly wouldn't know the specific strengths of specific schools). I need to get beyond that stage somehow in order to get an interview call - be it through internal referral, submission for an online job posting, or if I get to interact with the employer directly at a career fair, either on-campus or off it. That brings me to my next point.

6) If I'm a prospective employer, and I'm looking to hire, would I go first to a school I know about or to an unheard-of school? It's exactly like going out to a restaurant for dinner, in some ways. If you're like most people, and aren't a bit of the adventurous sort, would you rather go to a new place that you've never been to (looking at reviews from say, Urbanspoon, Chowhound or Yelp), or would you go to a place where you've eaten from in the past and have found the food to be good? All it comes down to, at the end of the day, is RISK. All of it comes down to how much risk you're willing to undertake. For big firms, they do not need to take a lot of risk (because unlike small firms or startups, they never face a shortage of good job applicants), in many cases, or aren't willing to, for whatever reason. So to minimize the risk, they'd go to a place they've hired from before, since they already have some sort of an idea as to the worth or quality of the bunch there, and in part, because the school has done part of their work for them by being selective and vetting out most of the candidates. This is what I personally like to think of, as the "street cred" of a school. Even though a school might not be in the top-10 or 20 or whatever, it might have such a good relationship with an employer, that the firm might go there to recruit ahead of some other better schools. All this brings me on to my next point.

7) Hiring is done, not on the basis of which school you've graduated from, but on the basis of your own skills, efforts, etc. Meaning, if you're a dud, and if you somehow managed to get into MIT and graduate from it (highly unlikely that you'd be a dud, but just for example's sake), you'd still be without a job. On the other hand, if you're from a not-so-well-known school, and have the skills the employers need, and are able to impress them in the interviews, you would get the job. And as you go down the line in terms of time, the farther away you go from the time you graduated, the lesser impact your school name and tag is gonna have. All that your brand name or tag is gonna do, is give you a push when it comes to getting interview calls, and that too only for entry- and mid-level positions. Nothing else. My own roomie at UNC Charlotte, a pretty unheard-of univ, got into Amazon for an internship and converted it to a full-time offer. Another got into MSFT. True, at lesser ranked or not too famous schools, the number of people who get into these top firms is less, I am not denying that. But, have you ever thought, if the fact that the people from top schools are in the top firms, is it because of the school, or because of them? Which brings me to my next point.

8) America is a meritocracy. If you're good, you'll get ahead. Simple as that. If you're not from a well-known or reputed school (one that doesn't have a whole lot of "street cred" to make use of), would it make you ineligible to apply to the top firms? Hell, no, not at all. Would job search be more of an uphill climb for a UNCC or UNO or a UTD grad as compared to someone from say, a CMU? Hell, yes, and I can attest to that from my personal experience. But, given a couple of years' time, for a fresher, if he/she works hard and has good projects and work-ex, would his/her profile be as competitive as that of a CMU guy with similar work-ex? Hell yeah. So what did the school brandname or tag help you to do, in the first place? Get that foot in the door, that initial push, the first break.

9) But, at the same time, I have always maintained that if you need to break the bank for any degree, no matter how good the RoI is (or rather, might seem when you start the program), it might not always be the best thing to do. Other folks disagree. Anyway, the priorities of every person are different, so what you should do - that is something which only you can decide and justify. Meaning, if you feel the risk is worth it, and you don't mind such a steep cost, a CMU or a Kelley is where you should go, the rest be damned. But, do keep in mind that circumstances change very very rapidly and you never know what's gonna happen in the future. You might end up getting a marginally higher salary too (say the difference would be $5k-15k), but in the long run, that's not too important. Because, the fact that potential employers would care about the most is your background, profile, work-ex, skills, etc. and how those measure up to the competition and what they're looking for in a candidate.

10) So, now in this specific case, it all comes down to what amount of risk are you willing to endure, and at what cost. Meaning, if you cannot afford going to Kelley at all, do you really honestly think it's worth taking out a huge loan (if any) for that reason? I don't know your financial situation, nobody except you does. So disregard all that you've heard here and from others, clear your head out, and make your own choice. Evaluate your risks yourself, risks that you'd face if you pick either of the two, and how you'd deal with it. Compromise, or rather, a trade-off is inevitable. But, only you can and should decide what factors to prioritize, what to consider as being the most important, what to base your decision on, and what can be thought of as not being too relevant. If the costs worry you, and/or the idea that you may not be able to pay back such a huge loan in time for whatever, or do not want that sword hanging over your head, pick the cheaper one, which in this case, would be Mays. If you do not care much about the costs and are ready to rough it out (in a manner of speaking) and take things as they come, are ready to deal with whatever life throws at you, go to Kelley, but then be prepared to deal with a loan and have backup options as to how you'd get rid of it if things don't go your way. Rest all, the teaching quality, placements, etc. is immaterial, more or less. That is what, I believe, coolguru, was referring to, when he said that Mays is not too far behind Kelley.

Oh wow, this has turned out to be quite a long post, even by my own standards. Didn't start this off expecting it to become some sort of a "10 Commandments" type of thing - and don't want it to be any such thing either. Just what I think, because I see people here theorizing away to glory on the basis of hearsay and half-baked ideas (not pointing to anyone in specific here). But the truth is, you'd learn all of this only the hard way, by going through it yourselves, and the rest is all BS. Smile

1) Please mention as many details as possible about your academics, research and work-ex, in terms of projects worked on, technologies used, roles/responsibilities handled, papers published/presented, awards/honors obtained, etc. All those have to be put in the misc details section of your UniSearch profile if you expect any help on Edulix. Also, before requesting for profile evaluations, please go through this excellent post.

2) Please take some time out to read these three threads in their entirety. PLEASE do that before asking questions about universities from a comparison perspective, or jobs, or coursework, or H-1B visas, or "placements", irrespective of which univ/department/program/major you're applying to.

I love to read, and then I regurgitate. I write - a lot - as my posts here and on other outlets would show. I do not make apologies for what I write (and how long it is). I do not sugarcoat things either. I don't tolerate vague questions, for any reasons - ignorance arising out of an inability to locate information when the necessary tools to do so (i.e. the internet, libraries, university websites, other forums/bulletin boards, etc.) are readily available, is not any kind of an acceptable excuse.

"Don't be daft." - Ancalagon The Black

"With the exchange rate where it is now, it should be a strong deterrent against picking a slightly better program for a lot more tuition fees." - coolguru
03-10-2012 10:42 PM
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Post: #10
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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The observer's post was very informative.. just to add masala .. @Havs.. by your post I see you like Kelly more Surprised Be sure that if you join Mays , you don't regret later that u didn't join Kelly (coz you may start hearing even better things abt it then).Once you start getting that thought ,life becomes hell..

Recounting from my experience of changing the college for 11th and 12th.. i regretted all through the 2 years Brick walld'oh!

(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 02:08 PM by mythical_tiger.)
03-12-2012 02:07 PM
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Post: #11
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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@Havsauthority Thts a close call bro....... any way some thing from my side.

I very much agree with observers point that when u get in the job it all depends on what u have in you to carry on with one.But, One thing.. The first break, the first opportunity make a lot of difference how ur career shapes up in future.

A guy from IIT atleast gets a chance to get into financial firms and all the biggies just bcoz those companies come there for placements whereas doesn't happens with a MU/PU guy bcoz those companies never come to their college for placements. So what do we say here was it the MU/PU guys ability at fault?? No Not at all may be that guy would have faired better on the same interview.

So a lot matters on the opportunity. Kelley stands much better here then TAMU.

Is money is really a pressing factor??? taking the worst case into consideration based on the fragile market conditions.... will this 13-15 K difference be that of concern for ur folks back here in India then?? If yes Don't think twice and take TAMU.(TAMU is really good)

Bcoz if u have it and u do justice to whatever comes along a good consulting job thru Kelley(chances with kelley being high) u will be able to make this 13k in no time.

Think about it.. Smile

03-12-2012 03:25 PM
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Post: #12
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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(03-12-2012 03:25 PM)gre.niks Wrote:  A guy from IIT atleast gets a chance to get into financial firms and all the biggies just bcoz those companies come there for placements whereas doesn't happens with a MU/PU guy bcoz those companies never come to their college for placements. So what do we say here was it the MU/PU guys ability at fault?? No Not at all may be that guy would have faired better on the same interview.

Exactly! You're paying the premium, be it at a Kelley or a CMU, for not only the level of teaching (which may or may not be equivalent to that in a Mays or USF), but also for the street-cred, alumni networks and overall reputation of the school. It's only up to you, whether paying that extra 10 grand each sem is worth it or not, and this answer will vary for different people. Choose wisely. Smile

@all

Thanks for the compliments. Smile

1) Please mention as many details as possible about your academics, research and work-ex, in terms of projects worked on, technologies used, roles/responsibilities handled, papers published/presented, awards/honors obtained, etc. All those have to be put in the misc details section of your UniSearch profile if you expect any help on Edulix. Also, before requesting for profile evaluations, please go through this excellent post.

2) Please take some time out to read these three threads in their entirety. PLEASE do that before asking questions about universities from a comparison perspective, or jobs, or coursework, or H-1B visas, or "placements", irrespective of which univ/department/program/major you're applying to.

I love to read, and then I regurgitate. I write - a lot - as my posts here and on other outlets would show. I do not make apologies for what I write (and how long it is). I do not sugarcoat things either. I don't tolerate vague questions, for any reasons - ignorance arising out of an inability to locate information when the necessary tools to do so (i.e. the internet, libraries, university websites, other forums/bulletin boards, etc.) are readily available, is not any kind of an acceptable excuse.

"Don't be daft." - Ancalagon The Black

"With the exchange rate where it is now, it should be a strong deterrent against picking a slightly better program for a lot more tuition fees." - coolguru
03-12-2012 05:21 PM
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Post: #13
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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Guys,
Thanks for all the views shared here.
specially The_Observer , after days of contemplation, I Believe that Kelley is just the right risk (financially) that I can take up at this moment considering all the factors -

1. My financial stability.
2. Reputation of the school needed to get an initial thrust into the market.
3. Flexibility of the course structure.
4. Flexibility to choose the length of internships.
5. A lil bit personal inclination Razz

Thanks yet again guys.
/m\ KelleY /m\


"...It is IU..."

School is hectic, can't evaluate SOPs
03-13-2012 04:53 PM
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crazy2kewl Away
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Post: #14
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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gre.niks
(03-12-2012 03:25 PM)gre.niks Wrote:  Bcoz if u have it and u do justice to whatever comes along a good consulting job thru Kelley(chances with kelley being high) u will be able to make this 13k in no time.

Think about it.. Smile

13k is no joke my friend. Smile
Here's a Wiki for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_i...ted_States

Here's a scenario...
Taking loan from India for 7 lacs for a period of 7 yrs.

Interest paid during the study period: 7500 per month (rough estimate)
So for 1.5 yrs he pays back : 7500 * 18 = 135000

Now the EMI would also contain interest part. Suppose he wishes to close the loan within a year from getting job. So he has to repay approx 9 lacs including penalty for early loan closing.

http://www.rupeetimes.com/calculators/ed...=7&rate=14

So total amount became: 9 lac + 1.35 lac = 10.35 lac = approx $19k

Let's say the person gets a 85k job living in NY.
Minus the taxes paid over the year 30%.
That leaves you with $60k
So that makes it a monthly $5000
Rent and utilities: 1500
Food $200
Car + Car insurance = $300 (Since NY has pretty good public transport... let's say for leisure travel)
General expenses: $500.

In the most stringent situations he saves $2500 per month...
So it takes him nearly 8 months to repay that loan.

And I have not even taken into account his personal expenses during the study period...

And then starts the real savings and earnings.... So he has lost almost a year just doing that ROI.

So for 2.5 to 3 yrs of his career the person is on a plateau from the start of studying!!

And if you are of those types keen to return to India after a 5 yr period for family or whatever reason... then my friend it makes no sense to invest an additional amount of money and increase that period....

As Observer said you'd learn it the hard way.
The market vulnerability is one big factor.

Food for thought :
Is having money to spend at the right age important for you or you wish to keep paying loans at that time ?? Think about it !!

Amit
Go Bulls \m/
MS MIS @USF Graduted Fall 2011
Info-USF MIS
06-16-2012 04:44 AM
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Post: #15
RE: Kelley vs TAMU (with aid)
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^ Great analysis c2k! Just one more thing, for your example, staying in NY or NJ or PA is going to make your car-related costs and insurance shoot up to $500-600, easy.

1) Please mention as many details as possible about your academics, research and work-ex, in terms of projects worked on, technologies used, roles/responsibilities handled, papers published/presented, awards/honors obtained, etc. All those have to be put in the misc details section of your UniSearch profile if you expect any help on Edulix. Also, before requesting for profile evaluations, please go through this excellent post.

2) Please take some time out to read these three threads in their entirety. PLEASE do that before asking questions about universities from a comparison perspective, or jobs, or coursework, or H-1B visas, or "placements", irrespective of which univ/department/program/major you're applying to.

I love to read, and then I regurgitate. I write - a lot - as my posts here and on other outlets would show. I do not make apologies for what I write (and how long it is). I do not sugarcoat things either. I don't tolerate vague questions, for any reasons - ignorance arising out of an inability to locate information when the necessary tools to do so (i.e. the internet, libraries, university websites, other forums/bulletin boards, etc.) are readily available, is not any kind of an acceptable excuse.

"Don't be daft." - Ancalagon The Black

"With the exchange rate where it is now, it should be a strong deterrent against picking a slightly better program for a lot more tuition fees." - coolguru
06-17-2012 09:21 PM
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