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A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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edumix Offline
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A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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(I had posted this as a reply under TU Delft status check 2015 thred. But now I think it needs its own thread.)

Hello All,

I am a current student at TU Delft. I think I should share my experiences with you at TU Delft before you turn to TU Delft admission. I honestly regret coming here. Please hear out my reasons and make a judgement of yourself

1. This country is highly discriminative towards non Europeans and non dutch. You will not get a TA/RA or a job as there are laws that prevent you from working. See that on university page.

2. The jobs after university and internships all companies prefer the dutch students, There is a certain amount of racism itself towards other students especially non Europeans. basically you get the left overs of dutch if there is any. The HR managers and top positions in companies here are by dutch people rather than a multi ethnic crowd like you see in USA

3. There is huge discrimination on fee. Europeans pay only 2000 EUR per year whereas you pat 13500. Youll end up feeling discriminated

4. The college is not what it is said in rankings page. I donno if they are buying rankings or anything. I for one find my department too crowded and not enough staffed. The classes are below par even on Indian level. I study many course from NPTEL website

5. You will take a lot of time for graduating here. Average graduation time is 2.5 years. In your second year you only have thesis and no classes. you basically pay university for nothing and that too around 1150 EUR per month. I think theres a business motive here to make you stay as long as possible by dragging you thesis. So you bleed money like a stuck pig. Note you can finish your degree in USA much faster

6. The taxes are very high in this country compared to USA. Way high. You only take home half of what you earn.

7. Cost of living is high compared to USA (forget owning a car after you work here. price of cars are extremely high and so are prices of other stuff)

8. Now salary here is only half of what you get in USA. Please research salaries before hand you come here

9. Internships pay around 500 EUR or less per month. In USA you get around 2500 USD per month

10. Everywhere you see a positive discrimination towards the dutch. Not just the job market but also the housing (DUWO) and other places such as the bank where dutch can hold a account free of cost but you pay 3.5 EUR per month just to maintain it.

11. Netherlands is voted worst country for expats, trust me its not worth it (http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/08/worlds-...xpats.html )
(http://www.dutchdailynews.com/unfriendly...ry-expats/ )

12. This university is run like a commercial business with a marketing department. I think they invite foreign students and once they reach here treat them like *word censored by forum*.

13. Last thing is that you need a salary of 27500 EUR if you are less than 30 years of age or 52500 if you are above 30 to get a permanent job visa in Netherlands after you graduate. These levels are high for companies here (see my earlier point on salary !!!!!). So they are hesitant to take up foreigners. This is gonna be a big worry for you.

I hope i gave you the right picture. Please think again before you join here. I know there are some agents on this site who give too much positive info to students. I suspect they being paid by university itself. Please research yourself. I wont recommend anyone joining here unless they get a scholarship beforehand. (You won’t get a scholarship once you come here).
PS: This is not my primary profile due to obvious reasons.
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2015 05:27 PM by edumix.)
05-30-2015 05:41 PM
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RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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Rogue

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05-31-2015 05:22 PM
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edumix Offline
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(I have posted this reply to rogues post in the other thread on fall 2015 admits quoting it here too) http://www.edulix.com/forum/showthread.p...96&page=10
Thanks for telling me about the links rogue. A stray ")" have creeped at the end of them. I have fixed it now. Now they work just fine Smile. Now please dont say my allegations are baseless. Especially for the figures I gave. Anyway lemme give some links to prove my point.

1. It is very rare for and Non-EU or even non Dutch student get TA/RA. Lucky you have got it but that’s the exception than the rule. The large amount of TA staff goes to Bachelors is not open for internationals because the Bachelor courses are simply in Dutch. Atleast in my department no non European I know has got into TA/RA and no Indian I know has got into TA/RA. TU delft itself says not to come here on assumption you’ll get TA/RA (please see last para of the link)
http://www.tudelft.nl/index.php?id=6759&L=1
Also see this link of the experience of a student (not me). I couldn’t give full URL as there is an expletive in URL itself and can get filtered
http://goo.gl/n3t88Z
Yes the laws are very strict regarding part-time working. I should also mention here that unlike USA you need a work permit to work here on top of your visa. And employers are very reluctant to give you this. They even have a law stating you can employ a non european only if you dont find a suitable dutch or non-european. If you think I am doing baseless allegations. Please see the links below. These are from the reputed employment agency untouchables. They even ask you to take a hike if you don’t have a work permit already.
http://www.undutchables.nl/no-exemption-applies
http://www.undutchables.nl/students
https://www.undutchables.nl/working-en-l...ork-permit


2. I have always seen that the companies have a preference for the Dutch. I can clearly remember many company managers and HR executives telling me in job fares that they only look for Dutch / Europeans. You were speaking of efforts. Lemme put it this way, for the same effort taken a dutch person finds it way more faster and easier into a job that Indian one. Atleast part of that reason is the minimum salaries required for a highly skilled migrant visa. Links are given below
http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_highly_skilled_migrant.htm
https://www.undutchables.nl/policy-for-h...d-migrants
https://ind.nl/EN/individuals/residence-...ed-migrant (official site)
Please read my point on salary below if you think that you ll easily get that much paid


3. Some Indian schools and colleges are discriminating in fee because the NRIs are admitted without selection. That is they don’t have to go through the normal entrance and other procedure. Here it’s the other way round. All Dutch students who have taken bachelors are immediately eligible to study masters. No LOR or SOP or going through a selection wall required and they pay the very reduced fee. That too very less compared to us (in USA out of state is half on in state, here its almost 1/6). You will also find that the other Europeans whos parents also pay no taxes in netherlands are paying the reduced fee. Now there is no point comparing this to system in India as the criteria are so totally different. I don’t see justice in that. In the most probable case of your thesis extending you got to pay 13500/12 = 1150 EUR per month whereas the dutch or Europeans only pay 2000/12 = 167 EUR per month. This means that they can chill out and finish the course at a relaxed pace. This gives them and unfair “academic” advantage more than a financial advantage when you are so rushing to finish your thesis.


4. The college system is not upto the mark primary because of the quarter system. This is worth another thread but I will put my thoughts here. Most courses are worth teaching a semester, but taught in quarters (and guess there are 4 quarters excluding vacations here whereas the California quarter system is only 3, so you get more time) in a rushed pace. And the number of courses required are about 4 times the number that you encounter in USA as you need 60 credits in courses in one year before you start thesis and average course is of 3 credits. I don’t blame the teachers, but they cant do justice to the courses they teach just because its squeezed into that 2.5 month quarter and you will be doing around 16 subjects a year. Forget the work permit, you won’t have time to work.


5. The fee paid should be proportional to the services rendered. You cant expect someone to advice that its correct to charge Rs. 1000 for a water bottle. For meeting a professor once and month or so doesn’t warrant that much fee.


6. If you doubt what I said about average time to graduate, please ask few existing students. This will become a big cause of worry especially if you are short on funds as you pay for each months spend here.


7. The salary difference exists and is huge. The cost of living is more in Netherlands than in almost all parts of USA except California. I am giving links below to prove this. And the salaries are half and taxes are way high. That’s disproportionate again so you end up having very less savings compared to USA. Even lower compared to Germany where the cost of living is lesser. (see the third link)
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/ran...ountry.jsp
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arch...es/267148/
https://www.justlanded.com/english/Nethe...etherlands
In summary you receive a lesser salary and you pay a lot in taxes and expenses (1 litre petol costs 1.5 Euros for example)


8. Internships are mostly in range of 0 to 500 EUR (yes some don’t pay). Than the 500 – 1000 EUR bracket. And you have to take a more expensive insurance for doing insurance and pay tax on that also. Please see bases for my allegations in the below links. The employer is not even legally bound to pay you.
https://www.hollandalumni.nl/career/job-...nternships
https://www.studyinholland.nl/study-opti...in-holland


9 & 10. Theres an invisible wall of separation between you and the Dutch students. Partly because this is the language. You will not see a much mingling between the dutch and foreign students. This is a subjective thing so I cant provide links or other things to prove except a blog from a student who came to Netherlands

http://letterfromthenetherlands.blogspot...lands.html
This makes sense especially after the Netherlands is voted the most unfriendly country for expats. Please see my perfectly working links in above post. If that link doesn’t work remove the ) from end.

11. Starting salaries like 4000 are one in thousands. Its like those star placements of Google and amazon from IITs that’s not certainly the norm. To substantiate this I will compare the average salary a civil engineer make in USA to that in Netherlands. Remember that these are what experienced people make and not the entry levels ones. An average experienced Civil engineer makes USD 61,382 in USA whereas an average experienced civil engineer only makes EUR 36,223 (40k USD) in Netherlands. This is even lesser than the 55,196 USD of a fresher graduate in the united states. And please refer to my taxes and living expenses post above to see how much you can save in that. The links are below
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...eer/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/NL/Job=...eer/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...ntry-Level

12. Another point I missed in the above post is about the dutch grade system. It is very stingy and absolute and from 0 to 10. You need a 6 to pass 10. The problem arises when you apply for a PHd abroad as the grades are compared against peers with a much lenient system (7.x is a good grade here). The selector on the other side in most cases will not care about the system and just go by the metric. Even TU Delft acknowledges this. Please see my below links
https://www.studyinholland.nl/education-...ing-system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_gr...etherlands
See the reply from Jacobsen in the link below (this from delta, a TU delft magazine)
http://delta.tudelft.nl/article/comparin...laces/5222
But PHd selectors more often than not compare apples and oranges. This sets you back a bit


Now rogue, I have every right to be anonymous and don’t say that my allegations are baseless. I think its my responsibility to give the students my version of the picture and they should apply their brains and research further before coming here. I have also given the bases for these from websites in addition to the subjective bias and bases I have experienced here which I shared in the earlier post. I believe this is a free forum and freedom of speech on “based” posts are respected here and my id will not be banned for exercising this right. And you threatening to ban me for speaking out ? And if something is bad I should have the courage to say its bad and I made a wrong choice. Dear prospective students all I say is that research well before you come here. I can only show you the doors.
05-31-2015 05:29 PM
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Post: #4
RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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Quoting Rogue's post here:

(05-31-2015 06:17 AM)Rogue Wrote:  I am a current Masters student in Delft and I am finishing, so I will still give my insights for each and every point since my experience in Delft has been more than satisfying enough for me to want to take up a PhD position here this year.

So here it goes, edumix I am not sure which faculty you are from, but please stop giving the wrong general picture to people here about TU Delft. Maybe you do not know your country or rather our country the great India well enough to be too delusional to think that there is no racism in India. In anycase, here are my counter arguments to the said post @[chiraganand1]

Some people just love to spread a negative word for no *word censured by forum* reason. I would suggest you don't go by such people. Studying abroad is after all not everyone's cup of tea clearly and then there are some like the OP of the said post who clearly love to rant about things rather than looking at the positive picture.

01. There are no laws that prevent you from working as a student. However, there is definitely a law that says that you can not work for more than 10 hours per week while you are a non EU student. Having said that, let me also mention that I myself have been a TA for two courses for Master students in my second year and know students here who are pursuing RA (called as student assistantships here). And to add to that, the salary for a TA is pretty decent to cover atleast let's say the rent for a month (It's 13 Euros/hr for Masters students).

02. There is nothing like preference is given to a Dutch student. And no international student gets the leftovers. I am sorry to say but if that had been the case, majority of the non Dutch students would have been unemployed which is not the case in reality. Mostly companies where field work is involves they prefer that you know some Dutch, but knowing the language doesn't have anything to do with a preference for Dutch people. If you can prove to the company officials that you have sufficient knowledge of Dutch (for a position that requires it, not all positions necessarily demand Dutch language as a requirement) then you can also bag the position. I have mentioned this time and again that being an international student (used to being spoon fed) most of us are lazy and expect to get things on a platter. So, we don't want to make efforts. But let's face it, if you have the skills and are present at the right place at the right time, nothing can stop you from getting a job.

03. Talk about discrimination on fees in universities, what do you know about discrimination on fees in India, eh? Let's begin from school level education, most renowned boarding schools in India charge atleast 10x the fees of an Indian student from an NRI student. Private engineering institutions too in some disciplines have this so called NRI quota where the fees is ofcourse much higher than that of an Indian student. US also has the concept of in-state and out-of-state tuition fees and you think there is no discrimination elsewhere including in our very own country India? Clearly, you know NOTHING AT ALL!!

04. The college is below par level? Seriously? You don't expect to be spoon fed at each stage...you are no more a 5 year old kid going to kindergarten who needs to be taught each and everything. Some stuff is meant to be learnt by yourself and you could use any source to do so. Stop complaining and start studying for a change maybe because wasting time ranting about the education level in TU Delft is not going to get you grades or make you pass your courses in TU Delft (which btw, is not so easy to do here especially in faculties such as Aero, Electrical, Civil(Structures) and Applied Sciences (Chemical)). No ranking is bought, so cut the crap and get to work coz that is the best option you have!!

05. Sure, you pay the university for nothing and like as if you do your thesis without being supervised by a professor and like you have no professors in your defense committee to evaluate the quality of your work. And who is going to pay them, eh? Clearly not your neighboring uncle Mr. Sharma right? So if the university has to pay the professors their salary, you need to pay the university the fee, duh!

06. The time of graduation on an average varies from faculty to faculty. The norms are also different. In Chemical Engineering everyone graduates on time, some even finish in 18 months. In Aero and Electrical graduation typically takes longer time because the thesis is done in collaboration with a company in most cases and there are a lot of deliverables set and that's typically how it works. But then there are people who have completed their programme in time even in these faculties, so it totally depends on the student. Mostly, even passing courses becomes difficult and then you cant start your thesis if you haven't passed your obligatory courses which also sometimes extends the graduation time for the student. But then if passing courses is difficult then that surely means there is a lot of hard work that needs to go in there...doesn't look like a piece of cake now, does it?

07. Stop comparing salaries between two countries. The salary is good enough according to the cost of living of the country. What you get, you can easily spend some and save the rest of the money. Ofcourse the proportion you spend depends on your personal standard of living also. If you live beyond what you can afford then what can I say? But from what I know of the people pursuing their PhDs and working with Shell, Dow or Fluor, I know for sure that the salary is more than sufficient to live in this country.

08. Internships pay you a little less, but enough to still be able to cover your rent or atleast some significant portion of your expenses. But yes, the amount is usually between 500-1000 Euros for a company and around 400-450 Euros for a research institute.

09. I don't get this obsession with discrimination towards the Dutch. I don't think I have heard any international student (read non-Dutch which includes, Colombians, Mexicans, Chinese, Koreans, Iranians etc.) complain as much as this guy has ranted about such trivial issues.

10. You are treated the way you treat people. I don't think people are unfriendly here, unless you are among those people who despite being surrounded by an international crowd love to stick to the crowd from your region of the country and converse in your language when you are ideally supposed to mingle with the internationals (read Dutch and other foreign nationalities). I think apart from Indian friends, most of us here have a huge group of Mexican, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and Chinese friends. That is also one reason Master students have the 10 day introduction programme. If you can't use that to your benefit, I have nothing more to say to you.

11. The starting salaries irrespective of nationality is roughly around a gross of 4000 euros per month. Nothing discourages the companies from recruiting foreign nationals. I know a good number of Indians and other foreign nationals here who are working with big companies and have a good salary and a good life, some being even married and living with their spouses. If any of this was true, foreign nationals would be unemployed but clearly most of them are not, perhaps LinkedIn alumni of TU Delft would give you some idea. So stop bullshitting on this forum because it is not helping!!

I think if one browses through the research credentials of the university and the profiles of the professors here, that is good enough to help them judge whether the university buys rankings or deserves the ranks they have.
And no, the university doesn't pay anybody to promote itself because it doesn't need promotion since it is already quite well renowned. The name TU Delft itself is good enough. I hope I have given enough insights already.

I would refrain from using the word "agents" here because this is a forum to help fellow aspirants and not a place filled with con-sellers who are paid by universities to send them students. So, if you think, the quoted post gives you the right picture, then God help your judging and researching capabilities.


and yes edumix if you had to rant, you should've done that using your primary profile, or do you not have the balls to reveal your edulixian identity? STOP giving wrong pictures to people because over all these years, there have been a lot of students (some of whom are now alumni) of TU Delft here, including me, who have lived in the Netherlands far longer than you have lived and studied for a longer period than you have I believe to be able to make claims and not baseless rants like yours. Stop complaining like a 5 year old kid and go study!! And learn to always respect your Alma Mater (or to-be Alma Mater). Now, if there appears another post with baseless remarks from you, I will ensure that the admins ban this profile of yours.

edumix
Your post won't be removed or your profile be banned just because you want to express a contrary opinion . Everyone is entitled to their own views as long as they are expressed in a civil manner and is also open to criticism and counterviews. The members are always urged to form their opinions or take their decisions only after researching properly.

06-01-2015 12:52 AM
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RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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Quote:Everyone is entitled to their own views as long as they are expressed in a civil manner and is also open to criticism and counterviews.

I agree with this. I have no real opinion on what's being said on this topic but I feel Rogue could have debated without having to resort to so much ad hominem.

I no longer have the time, and have not kept up with the trends to give profile evaluations. Please only tag me if you have general queries about my school, life in the US, internships/jobs and the like.

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06-01-2015 02:54 AM
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Post: #6
RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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Thank you for the comments nimbus_2000 and Wololo. I just do not see the same picture as Rogue and wanted to express it. Never thought she would think of banning me on providing my experience. I never wanted to personally annoy anyone and I believe I have expressed my counter reviews in the most civil manner with required citations. Your posts does give me some much needed comfort. Thanks again.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2015 03:38 AM by edumix.)
06-01-2015 03:37 AM
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RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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edumix I think I kind of get what you're going through. I've seen similar opinions from people studying in my city, whereas all I can do is sing praises about my place of study.

I would recommend you take a step back and see if one rotten experience isn't influencing your entire perspective. I know two people (not including Rogue) who graduated from TU Delft who are now working there and living the good life.

There are so many things that are factually correct in your post, but your attitude towards those issues could be better. Of course, there's going to be some preference for citizens, especially with regard to the language.

I know foreign students have no obligation to learn Dutch during the course of study, but have you tried? It helps when you learn the local language. You make a ton more friends than you would without.

You knew the issue regarding the higher fees before you started studying here right? So why so much hate towards it now?

Housing is always going to be an issue. There's no denying that there will be some discrimination or rather 'preference'. I'm assuming you at least have a place to stay. Come to Aachen and I'll show you people still living from one temporary apartment to another but still living the life to its fullest.

Lastly, please don't fall into the trap of forming cliques of friends who share your mother tongue. It's nice to have people as friends who you can relate so much with, but until you make the effort to mingle with others, they're going to assume you're not friendly and not make any effort. So many people, so many times have said this on Edulix, you're not going to get anything handed to you, you want something you have to go get it. Participate in some extra curricular activity and come back and tell us if people blatantly refused to have a conversation with you because you were not a European/Dutch national.

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06-01-2015 05:42 AM
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Post: #8
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dear antidive I have taken a lot of thought before wrote this. This is not just my experience but also experience of some of my friends. Now lemme answer your specific doubts

1. I would really like to learn dutch. But with this much workload as mentioned in my point no 4 in above post there is hardly any time to spare. You go through 60 ECTS worth of courses in first year alone with 3 credits being average course. So you have to study somewhere like 16 subjects in first year. And even large subjects are compressed into a quarter (a severe injustice to the subject and students). In addition you have reset courses from previous quarter which you may have failed. This increases your load to astronomical levels. So no time spared to learn Dutch Sad

2. I knew about higher fee. I have no problem with that. My problem is something else

2a. That the there is a very high probability that all thesis in second year is going to be dragged and i should pay monthly (1150 EUR every month) for the additional time also even if thesis is dragged due to no fault of mine. I have to pay living expense like room rent for time also. Average graduation time is around 2.5 years. No one told me about this before i came here. My finances are based on 2 years of study. I am mentally and financially not able to drag. Puts tremendous stress especially if you have a loan.

2b. Now Europeans and Dutch pay significantly less fee (<200 EUR per month). This gives them an unfair "academic" advantage as they can easily drag their thesis and produce a higher quality work and have a better quality of life while we are slogging and sweating to finish. I am not against the financial advantage here. I honestly do not think this academic advantage is fair

2c. The fee in the second year is highly disproportionate to the services being rendered as there are no classes and you are basically your own. You may may meet a professor once in month or even less frequent than that. Basically its your headache and you are the one who works. I have no problem with working but the disproportionateness of the fees asked and that too per month instead of say a fixed amount for second year or till thesis ends.

3. I am not talking about forming groups based on mother tongue. But it is rather hard as a general rule to befriend the dutch even with their language (some Surinamese students who know dutch have told me this). They (generally - no stereotyping) has that attitude of not mixing (see the blog links i gave in earlier post)

Thanks for your reply. I am always open to constructive discussions of what is happening here. It is not my intention to be frustrated or emotionally high and start abusing the university. Since the amount of info here about this country and this university is less I just wanted to give another picture to what Rogue describes and shed light on specific issues so there is no bad surprises when students reach here.
06-01-2015 02:55 PM
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Post: #9
RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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(05-31-2015 05:29 PM)edumix Wrote:  (I have posted this reply to rogues post in the other thread on fall 2015 admits quoting it here too) http://www.edulix.com/forum/showthread.p...96&page=10
Thanks for telling me about the links rogue. A stray ")" have creeped at the end of them. I have fixed it now. Now they work just fine Smile. Now please dont say my allegations are baseless. Especially for the figures I gave. Anyway lemme give some links to prove my point.

1. It is very rare for and Non-EU or even non Dutch student get TA/RA. Lucky you have got it but that’s the exception than the rule. The large amount of TA staff goes to Bachelors is not open for internationals because the Bachelor courses are simply in Dutch. Atleast in my department no non European I know has got into TA/RA and no Indian I know has got into TA/RA. TU delft itself says not to come here on assumption you’ll get TA/RA (please see last para of the link)
http://www.tudelft.nl/index.php?id=6759&L=1
Also see this link of the experience of a student (not me). I couldn’t give full URL as there is an expletive in URL itself and can get filtered
http://goo.gl/n3t88Z
Yes the laws are very strict regarding part-time working. I should also mention here that unlike USA you need a work permit to work here on top of your visa. And employers are very reluctant to give you this. They even have a law stating you can employ a non european only if you dont find a suitable dutch or non-european. If you think I am doing baseless allegations. Please see the links below. These are from the reputed employment agency untouchables. They even ask you to take a hike if you don’t have a work permit already.
http://www.undutchables.nl/no-exemption-applies
http://www.undutchables.nl/students
https://www.undutchables.nl/working-en-l...ork-permit


2. I have always seen that the companies have a preference for the Dutch. I can clearly remember many company managers and HR executives telling me in job fares that they only look for Dutch / Europeans. You were speaking of efforts. Lemme put it this way, for the same effort taken a dutch person finds it way more faster and easier into a job that Indian one. Atleast part of that reason is the minimum salaries required for a highly skilled migrant visa. Links are given below
http://www.expatlaw.nl/dutch_highly_skilled_migrant.htm
https://www.undutchables.nl/policy-for-h...d-migrants
https://ind.nl/EN/individuals/residence-...ed-migrant (official site)
Please read my point on salary below if you think that you ll easily get that much paid


3. Some Indian schools and colleges are discriminating in fee because the NRIs are admitted without selection. That is they don’t have to go through the normal entrance and other procedure. Here it’s the other way round. All Dutch students who have taken bachelors are immediately eligible to study masters. No LOR or SOP or going through a selection wall required and they pay the very reduced fee. That too very less compared to us (in USA out of state is half on in state, here its almost 1/6). You will also find that the other Europeans whos parents also pay no taxes in netherlands are paying the reduced fee. Now there is no point comparing this to system in India as the criteria are so totally different. I don’t see justice in that. In the most probable case of your thesis extending you got to pay 13500/12 = 1150 EUR per month whereas the dutch or Europeans only pay 2000/12 = 167 EUR per month. This means that they can chill out and finish the course at a relaxed pace. This gives them and unfair “academic” advantage more than a financial advantage when you are so rushing to finish your thesis.


4. The college system is not upto the mark primary because of the quarter system. This is worth another thread but I will put my thoughts here. Most courses are worth teaching a semester, but taught in quarters (and guess there are 4 quarters excluding vacations here whereas the California quarter system is only 3, so you get more time) in a rushed pace. And the number of courses required are about 4 times the number that you encounter in USA as you need 60 credits in courses in one year before you start thesis and average course is of 3 credits. I don’t blame the teachers, but they cant do justice to the courses they teach just because its squeezed into that 2.5 month quarter and you will be doing around 16 subjects a year. Forget the work permit, you won’t have time to work.


5. The fee paid should be proportional to the services rendered. You cant expect someone to advice that its correct to charge Rs. 1000 for a water bottle. For meeting a professor once and month or so doesn’t warrant that much fee.


6. If you doubt what I said about average time to graduate, please ask few existing students. This will become a big cause of worry especially if you are short on funds as you pay for each months spend here.


7. The salary difference exists and is huge. The cost of living is more in Netherlands than in almost all parts of USA except California. I am giving links below to prove this. And the salaries are half and taxes are way high. That’s disproportionate again so you end up having very less savings compared to USA. Even lower compared to Germany where the cost of living is lesser. (see the third link)
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/ran...ountry.jsp
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arch...es/267148/
https://www.justlanded.com/english/Nethe...etherlands
In summary you receive a lesser salary and you pay a lot in taxes and expenses (1 litre petol costs 1.5 Euros for example)


8. Internships are mostly in range of 0 to 500 EUR (yes some don’t pay). Than the 500 – 1000 EUR bracket. And you have to take a more expensive insurance for doing insurance and pay tax on that also. Please see bases for my allegations in the below links. The employer is not even legally bound to pay you.
https://www.hollandalumni.nl/career/job-...nternships
https://www.studyinholland.nl/study-opti...in-holland


9 & 10. Theres an invisible wall of separation between you and the Dutch students. Partly because this is the language. You will not see a much mingling between the dutch and foreign students. This is a subjective thing so I cant provide links or other things to prove except a blog from a student who came to Netherlands

http://letterfromthenetherlands.blogspot...lands.html
This makes sense especially after the Netherlands is voted the most unfriendly country for expats. Please see my perfectly working links in above post. If that link doesn’t work remove the ) from end.

11. Starting salaries like 4000 are one in thousands. Its like those star placements of Google and amazon from IITs that’s not certainly the norm. To substantiate this I will compare the average salary a civil engineer make in USA to that in Netherlands. Remember that these are what experienced people make and not the entry levels ones. An average experienced Civil engineer makes USD 61,382 in USA whereas an average experienced civil engineer only makes EUR 36,223 (40k USD) in Netherlands. This is even lesser than the 55,196 USD of a fresher graduate in the united states. And please refer to my taxes and living expenses post above to see how much you can save in that. The links are below
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...eer/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/NL/Job=...eer/Salary
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=...ntry-Level

12. Another point I missed in the above post is about the dutch grade system. It is very stingy and absolute and from 0 to 10. You need a 6 to pass 10. The problem arises when you apply for a PHd abroad as the grades are compared against peers with a much lenient system (7.x is a good grade here). The selector on the other side in most cases will not care about the system and just go by the metric. Even TU Delft acknowledges this. Please see my below links
https://www.studyinholland.nl/education-...ing-system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_gr...etherlands
See the reply from Jacobsen in the link below (this from delta, a TU delft magazine)
http://delta.tudelft.nl/article/comparin...laces/5222
But PHd selectors more often than not compare apples and oranges. This sets you back a bit


Now rogue, I have every right to be anonymous and don’t say that my allegations are baseless. I think its my responsibility to give the students my version of the picture and they should apply their brains and research further before coming here. I have also given the bases for these from websites in addition to the subjective bias and bases I have experienced here which I shared in the earlier post. I believe this is a free forum and freedom of speech on “based” posts are respected here and my id will not be banned for exercising this right. And you threatening to ban me for speaking out ? And if something is bad I should have the courage to say its bad and I made a wrong choice. Dear prospective students all I say is that research well before you come here. I can only show you the doors.


Ofcourse you can't work as a TA for Bachelors courses because they are in Dutch but I repeat you can TA for Masters first year courses in your second year. And I know many people here in TU Delft who have done that. It's hard to believe people in your faculty have not received an opportunity for the same. Maybe people do not know that they can work as TA for Master courses also. And SA is available only if the professor has funds to hire a Master student as a SA. It is ofcourse not as easy as in the US and I have mentioned this time and again to people.

Also, the laws are strict with very good reason. You don't want to plunge into TA/RA in your first year when the curriculum is so intensive that it isn't a piece of cake to pass your courses. But then again I would say stop complaining. Only 40 out of 900-1000 selected international applicants get a scholarship. So rest everybody is pretty much in just the same situation as you are. You need to learn to deal with it without cribbing. I am not saying it's bad to voice your opinion, but your post felt like you were cribbing about things and there was a lot of negativity in it which wasn't needed. I would suggest you learn to see the positive side of things too. The picture isn't as bad as you have painted it to be.

During internships while you pay a higher insurance you also get allowances from the government irrespective of the nationality. If you pay 100 Euros for your health insurance, you do get 75 Euros back (per month basis) which is pretty good and irrespective of nationality. Most of my friends and seniors I know have paid internships including myself and I haven't heard of people with unpaid internships so far. It is typical of a Master student to get paid while they are working. During internships ofcourse you do not need a work permit whether your pursue your internship within NL or abroad. However, what you must understand is that unlike in the US H1B what you have typically in European countries is a residence permit which gives you the permission to stay in the country, saying that you are a resident of the country and so along with that you do need a work permit and so far all the working people I know, in big companies have had their work permit arrangements either covered by the company or the expenses for the work permit was reimbursed by the company in some form. It could be a handful of companies that do not agree to get your work permit and residence permit done.

In a lot of faculties the thesis is done in collaboration with a company and they are paid some amount of stipend during their thesis period, typically in EWI, Civil and Aerospace. And I know this again because loads of my batch mates are currently doing theses in collaboration with companies and all of them get paid.
While I do get the fact that we pay more and therefore extensions become an unfair advantage for the Dutch, let me also tell you this, during your thesis, even though a professor's project is funded by an external funding agency the university too has a huge responsibility in funding the research of the faculty and the fees that you pay go into the university's research funds primarily apart from paying the faculty only. And this is first hand information from some contacts I have at the Central International Office of TU Delft, which I will refrain from disclosing here on a public forum.

As far as grading goes, that is typically the grading system in the Netherlands and I don't see any point in complaining about it now. Universities abroad are somewhat aware of this because I know a few people from TU Delft who are pursuing their PhDs outside the Netherlands, namely in ETH Zurich and UC Berkeley and Stanford. If things were that unfair at Berkeley and Stanford, TU Delft grads wouldn't stand a chance then I would think, but that is clearly not the case.

4000 Euros gross is the average starting salary where you get a dispensable income eventually of about 2500 roughly after taxes which is more than sufficient for a living in the country. Loads of my seniors have told me that, most of whom are currently working with Shell, Fluor, AkzoNobel, P&G etc. Again, I am not sure which faculty you belong to but it is hard to believe what you just mentioned. The information on the links you have mentioned don't entirely apply to us in reality because we are technically residents of Netherlands and not just highly skilled migrants. That is because we hold a degree from a Dutch university and have lived for about two years or more till the time we graduate. Refer to this
https://www.hollandalumni.nl/career/prac...nts-scheme
Refer to the third point in the salary criteria section. That is what applies to us since we are graduates that too from a Dutch public university and usually the average net salary in the industry after taxes is ~2200-2500 euros (dispensable income) and the gross annual salary (before taxes) is ~4000 euros.

Now how you spend the salary that you get depends totally on you.

Some companies prefer Dutch/EU citizens but then that's not majority of the market, that is for sure, else non-EU students wouldn't be getting jobs. But then skills are definitely a part of the folio that you need to have. And one definitely needs to make efforts, perhaps a little more than your Dutch counterparts but does that really harm so much? I don't see the fuss if your efforts can eventually land you a job.

In the Dutch education system, unlike in India, after a Bachelors a student is not considered an engineer, so for them to find technical jobs a Master degree is mandatory for them, so the university makes provision in a way that every Dutch student gets the opportunity to complete their Masters degree and become an engineer eventually. That's how the system works.


I agree that a quarter is too less but then that's what makes the coursework too intensive since you have to finish a course in 10 weeks. There are some courses that go on for two quarters as well though. But then you can't blame the professors for rushing through. You need to help yourself as well without expecting them to go into details of everything. They touch upon important stuff but it is for you to study them in details, unless you are not used to self studying in which case I can imagine your difficulty.


And about not knowing that the average time for graduation is 2.5 years depends totally on how you proceed with your studies. So, it is partly your responsibility as well but of course with the thesis I agree it isn't always your responsibility since professors sometimes have a lot of deliverables and expectations. But then in faculties where the avg time for graduation is 2.5 years, if you speak to anyone from the faculty they would mention that and specifically ask them about the curriculum and course structure, they would usually mention it. Atleast I always mention when someone asks me about the course structure in Chemical Engineering. So, maybe you didn't ask the right questions to the right people concerned.

Discrimination in fees in Indian institutes is not because NRIs don't have to go through selection procedures. Medicine programme in Manipal has an NRI quota (with a selection exam) and their fees is higher than a regular Indian medicine student at Manipal. I know this for sure since my cousin studies there now. NRI quota exists in the NITs also if I am not wrong, but I am not sure about the fee structure so I will not comment. Some of my distant NRI cousins are studying in boarding schools in India and they had to appear for entrances (so clearly there is a selection procedure) and then they pay more fees than Indian students at the same school. So, it isn't always the case that NRI quota exists without any selection procedure.

And finally, I am sorry if my comment sounded rude and bitter but I certainly did not appreciate your attitude. I am sure you have the rights to give your opinions, but not before you have looked at both the positives and the negatives. Your opinion was wayyy too one sided and was in all honesty pretty discouraging for a TU Delft aspirant which is not how it should be.

Instead of appreciating the people who by all means would have helped you in your pursuit of TU Delft, calling them "paid agents" because they give you a positive view about the university is improper. Also, your opinion about purchased ranking is surely not something I would appreciate.

A majority of the people here in Delft have a similar opinion as I do, I haven't personally seen a lot of people complaining so much in my more than a year and a half long stay now in Delft.

But then without getting into further debate (because I don't want to spoil the decorum of the EU forum by turning things bitter), I just want to say, the grass always looks greener on the other side unless you actually go onto the other side to see how green it is for yourself. So, stop comparing now!! You are in Delft now, and all you can do is change your attitude towards the way you see things here to make things easier for yourself. Unless you begin to look at the positive side of things, you won't have a good experience in your graduate school which then will be a sheer pity.

And if US appeals to you that much, you always have the option of deregistering from the university and applying to US universities and going there. Don't worry TU Delft will refund your fees back if you deregister.

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06-01-2015 09:27 PM
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RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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(06-01-2015 02:55 PM)edumix Wrote:  dear @[antidive] I have taken a lot of thought before wrote this. This is not just my experience but also experience of some of my friends. Now lemme answer your specific doubts

1. I would really like to learn dutch. But with this much workload as mentioned in my point no 4 in above post there is hardly any time to spare. You go through 60 ECTS worth of courses in first year alone with 3 credits being average course. So you have to study somewhere like 16 subjects in first year. And even large subjects are compressed into a quarter (a severe injustice to the subject and students). In addition you have reset courses from previous quarter which you may have failed. This increases your load to astronomical levels. So no time spared to learn Dutch Sad

That is the general situation with most students but then that's how you need to manage your time. I am pursuing 140 ECTS for my Masters (20 ECTS worth for Honours), if I could manage time to pursue 20 ECTS of coursework along with the regular 120 ECTS, how hard it is to manage time for a 3 ECTS course? And yes, I also did study Dutch for a quarter along with all that. Time management and good planning is the key!! Sorry to say but we Indians have a habit of doing stuff at the last moment and I have told a lot of people that such a strategy won't work well in TU Delft.

2. I knew about higher fee. I have no problem with that. My problem is something else

2a. That the there is a very high probability that all thesis in second year is going to be dragged and i should pay monthly (1150 EUR every month) for the additional time also even if thesis is dragged due to no fault of mine. I have to pay living expense like room rent for time also. Average graduation time is around 2.5 years. No one told me about this before i came here. My finances are based on 2 years of study. I am mentally and financially not able to drag. Puts tremendous stress especially if you have a loan.

Again comes down to planning. That is for you to make sure that your professor is informed that your thesis is for an official period of x months. Leave out a month for simply writing and preparing for your defense. You should then clearly tell your professor that you have only (x-1) months available for your actual work and set realistic deliverables which you can complete in time. While the average graduation time maybe 2.5 years, it is not necessary that you will need to drag it so long. People do finish their programs in time and you could very well be one among them.

2b. Now Europeans and Dutch pay significantly less fee (<200 EUR per month). This gives them an unfair "academic" advantage as they can easily drag their thesis and produce a higher quality work and have a better quality of life while we are slogging and sweating to finish. I am not against the financial advantage here. I honestly do not think this academic advantage is fair.

Would you prefer to lay back and take multiple vacations and choose to pursue some courses later (as against the scheduled time) or work hard and finish your programme in time? Because that's how most of the Europeans love to extend their programs. And if you ask me, I am not in Europe for a vacation or for lazing around, so I would prefer the latter clearly. I mean I wouldn't want such an "academic" advantage to be honest. But then ofcourse it depends on you, how you look at things.

2c. The fee in the second year is highly disproportionate to the services being rendered as there are no classes and you are basically your own. You may may meet a professor once in month or even less frequent than that. Basically its your headache and you are the one who works. I have no problem with working but the disproportionateness of the fees asked and that too per month instead of say a fixed amount for second year or till thesis ends.

The fees is not just for the faculty of the salaries. Please refer to my post earlier. A major chunk of it also goes in the research funds of the university which funds the project of your professor and pays the PhD students who is responsible for supervising your project in the lab, because the funding agency never funds a project in its entirety. I know this because I have read the project proposals for a couple of PhD positions I have applied for until now, both in TU Delft and in TU Eindhoven too and also one from EPFL and the costs incurred in a project including salaries of all people employed to work on it are much more than the funding that the professors can apply for. So certainly rest of the money is provided by the university who employs not only the professors but PhD students. If you do your thesis in a company you have the advantage of receiving a stipend. The companies do pay as against what you think.

3. I am not talking about forming groups based on mother tongue. But it is rather hard as a general rule to befriend the dutch even with their language (some Surinamese students who know dutch have told me this). They (generally - no stereotyping) has that attitude of not mixing (see the blog links i gave in earlier post)

Most of the Dutch people don't live in Delft but in nearby cities of Rotterdam and Den Haag which is also why it is hard to form bonds with them like you would with let's say your Indian counterparts who live in the same city and housing as you do. So, if you meet someone only in class its hard to form strong bonds but then there are a lot of other internationals apart from the Dutch with whom you don't need to know their language to interact. You should try befriending internationals and not just rely on the Dutch. But, then the Dutch are again not that hard to be friendly with. All it needs is a beer Wink

Thanks for your reply. I am always open to constructive discussions of what is happening here. It is not my intention to be frustrated or emotionally high and start abusing the university. Since the amount of info here about this country and this university is less I just wanted to give another picture to what @[Rogue] describes and shed light on specific issues so there is no bad surprises when students reach here.

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06-01-2015 09:44 PM
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RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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There is also another aspect of things, decently positive I would say for those looking for a job in the industry after Masters. You are entitled to a tax return on your education expenses (the money that you pay to the university each year). The way it works is something like this, once you start working, you are a tax paying resident of the Netherlands and depending on which income tax bracket your income falls into, that much proportion of the education expenses is reimbursed back to you. In most cases, the starting salaries, if you have graduated from a Dutch university, falls in the tax bracket where you have to pay 42% tax, apart from the care allowance, you can also apply for tax returns for education expenses up to 15000 euros max. The tax office then reimburses 42% of your annual education expenses and that is already quite useful and beneficial. This is a tax benefit given only to international students seeking a job in the Netherlands of course. The Dutch do not receive it since they get grants from the Govt. to pursue their education already.

http://www.expatax.nl/kb/article/can-i-d...WyO2lWqpBc
http://www.expatax.nl/kb/article/can-i-d...WyM8FWqpBchttp://www.dsf.nl/wp-content/uploads/201...nefits.pdf

All of these essentially say the same thing. This is already something positive that you get in terms of benefits from the Government. So, it isn't as bad as you show it to be. There is no bad surprise like the way you put it to be honest, except for the slight culture shock maybe.

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06-01-2015 10:47 PM
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RE: A warning to those who choose TU Delft
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If you need more proof again, read this article

https://medium.com/@kaitinghuang/netherl...06f7ac7d38
08-14-2015 10:01 PM
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My dear edumix, the article that you mentioned does give the other side of the story but let me also emphasize that the author is not simply ranting about the negatives. She acknowledges and embraces the positives of her experience while counting the negatives, thus presenting facts from both sides for somebody to make an informed decision.

What you have been doing on this thread is ranting about the negatives which is certainly not going to help people make an informed decision. You are in some way or the other just trying to emphasize on the negative aspects of coming to Delft time and again. That will simply make people decide against choosing TU Delft. That's not how you do things. If you want to help people make a decision, stop WARNING THEM AGAINST choosing Delft. Instead present facts from both sides which will aid in them making an INFORMED DECISION. I think people are smart enough to fend for themselves. You really don't need to WARN anybody.

I don't know who you are and honestly, I am not even the least bit interested. I know there are a lot of people who are struggling to get a firm hold on the ground after graduation, but nevertheless they, as many others will agree with me, that a Masters from Delft has been more than a fulfilling experience for a lot of them. So, this is my humble advice to you. You have done your bit, you have presented your view points. There are counter view points also presented. People are smart. They do ask around a lot so as to be able to make informed decisions. Now let them decide for themselves based on the pluses and the minuses. You don't have to go out of the way to emphasize on the minuses time and again and WARN anybody here really.

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(This post was last modified: 08-25-2015 06:50 PM by Rogue.)
08-25-2015 06:49 PM
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Just sharing my part of the story. No need to feel offended
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2015 05:47 AM by edumix.)
08-26-2015 05:43 AM
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cheer edumix De wallen exists only in netherlands.....Atleast one thing better than others Very Happy

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(This post was last modified: 08-26-2015 01:29 PM by masterspassion.)
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